Curse

bungusmaximus · Apr 10, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

OK nice little rant in here. 75% of the PUG's I join in TA have a very one-dimensional strategy when it comes to TA battles. It's mostly something around: YOU LOT ATTACK MONK FIRST!!!! Nice and all, and I know a monk does healing and all, but it's most definitely not the most dangerous player around most of the time. I really can't grab why people always prefer monk stomp above thinking. Most of the times teams like that tend to get creamed, most of the time it's quite obvious why, why do people keep on doing it then?

Few examples:
-You have a team with 2 warriors in it, a dom mesmer and a monk, the enemy runs a heavy anti melee team with a blindbot and a curses necro. why on earth should you try to kill a monk with the two warriors on your team instead of shutting down the enemy monk with the dom. mesmer and killing the anti melee toons first?

-Monks don't carry res, so if you save the monk for last, he/she is definitely not going to res dead team mates.

-If you MUST kill an enemy monk, why stick a warrior on him before he even charged ONE strike of adrenalin? auto attacks are NOT going to impress a good monk, a sudden adrenaline spike+knockdown however...
I can remember a match when someone wanted me to kill a monk, when I was charging some adrenalin on the enemy dom. mesmer they started yelling: OMG FOLLOW CALLS NUB!

-When the 3 offensive toons on your team attack the monk without even looking back, theres a pretty big chance the opposing team will do the same to YOUR monk. The chance of winning and losing the match are pretty much out of your hands then because there is no plan. The team with the lowest percentage of idiots will most likely win.

Just wanted to emphasize why monk-stomp is only allowed in my book when theres 4 monks on the opposing team. I'm not the most über leet TA warrior at all (50/50 win/loss ratio), so if I see why monk-stomp is stupid, why do others refuse to see?

urania · Apr 10, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

cause most of them are inexperienced/unable to improve/stupid/*insert other random excuse for nubishness*?

be happy you know better and try finding ppl who think the same.

icedwhitemocha · Apr 10, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

It's usually a one-time explanation thing. Once somebody takes the time to explain the concept of threat level and why monk stomping is generally bad in 4v4, they stop playing like that. Of course, there's the small issue of said party actually listening to you.

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 10, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

The Monk Stomp is foolishness that started in the very beginning of PvP in GW and has gone on ever since. Is it effective? Depends on who you talk to. Is it smart? Depends on when you do it.

If the monk is alone and just healing/protecting his little heart out, by all means, give him a few whacks to let him lose focus. However, that doesn't mean that you chase the monk all over the map while your own monk gets hammered. Also, if the monk is capable of tanking temporarily when you stomp him, it becomes very silly to continue doing it.

Protection monks in TA/RA with these 3 spells;

[skill=card]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill=card]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill=card]Shield of Absorption[/skill]

essentially can take a licking for a short period of time. Long enough for the rest of the team to get their wits about the situation and get back on defense. However, the major problem of a monk stomp is that it seems to be contagious and usually your team is at least partially stomping the opposing monk. So if you had one defender with you, you are lucky.

beltran13579 · Apr 10, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

when ever i play as a BoA sin i wait like 15 sec into battle be4 i even try to attack then i take a target that has a hex on it so the monk doesnt see it and is most likely distracted by my other teammates and i never attack the monk first cause my other teammates will work on that

Levi Garett · Apr 10, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I can't count the number of times I've seen random nublets get owned by a smiting monk. Retribution+Symbol of Wrath+Bath's Aura+SoJ. Of course only the foolish continue to stand near the monk attacking it! Always find the cream of the crop in RA though...

Vazze · Apr 10, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Yeah, monk stomp is suxage maximus. I think ppl are getting better unnderstanding it though, compared to what it was a few month ago, it is a lto better now, ....but still far from good lol. (half a year ago my favorite stance was bonetti, it was that bad.)

Blame the Monks · Apr 10, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

A monk's job is to heal/reduce the other team's damage. Most monks are built to be highly resistant to damage. Furthermore, if you attack the monk right off, the monk can do his job without spending any energy (he just kites). By contrast, most other casters have no defense, must stand still to do their job (casting), and the monk must use energy to heal them and thus do his job.

Guess which works better in the long run -- attacking a resilient caster who plans on you focusing on him and wants it that way or attacking a defenseless caster who wants you to leave him alone so he can kill your monk?

First, attack a prime target on the other team. It might be someone with low armor and no defense (read mesmer), someone you want to disrupt with dblows, kds, etc, (ritualist), or someone you just want to force to kite (aoe spiker). Switch targets frequently to make the monk spread his prots. As the monk begins to run out of energy, switch to the monk and stay there. Once the pressure is setting in, you get wipes faster by focusing on monks. Before the damage sets in, attack their damage or most attractive target.

Its that simple.

Ser Jaremy Ryker · Apr 15, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

A monk's job is to heal/reduce the other team's damage. Most monks are built to be highly resistant to damage. Furthermore, if you attack the monk right off, the monk can do his job without spending any energy (he just kites). By contrast, most other casters have no defense, must stand still to do their job (casting), and the monk must use energy to heal them and thus do his job.

Guess which works better in the long run -- attacking a resilient caster who plans on you focusing on him and wants it that way or attacking a defenseless caster who wants you to leave him alone so he can kill your monk?

First, attack a prime target on the other team. It might be someone with low armor and no defense (read mesmer), someone you want to disrupt with dblows, kds, etc, (ritualist), or someone you just want to force to kite (aoe spiker). Switch targets frequently to make the monk spread his prots. As the monk begins to run out of energy, switch to the monk and stay there. Once the pressure is setting in, you get wipes faster by focusing on monks. Before the damage sets in, attack their damage or most attractive target.

Its that simple.

Absolutely,
Most of the times I get on a team with a good streak the enemy monk ends up being among the last one we take out (depending...). We'll even take out warriors before/at-the-same-time if they are good players and running something disruptive like shock-axe. A monk on his/her own usually isn't much of a threat to your team. You just have to harrass them through the match, get them to deplete energy, spike/knockdown every once in a while, and interrupt key skills (gotta watch for ones carrying a hard-res). But yeah, it's generally good to take out sins, necros, mesmers, etc as they are squishy and pose more threat, and that the monks are very good at self-survival.

Whenever I get on a team blindly chanting the "Kill the monk first" philosophy I don't expect to go very far.

red orc · Apr 15, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Even with pug you still have to know which is the most dangerous target, when to switch targets, and who takes down who. A good pug will do that and get a glad point, a bad one will attack the monk and die. In that case you can just start over until you find a good one.

Div · Apr 15, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

The reason why people go for the monks first is because that's what you're generally supposed to do in PvE. You've been trained from day 1 in PvE to take down the mob monk first, and then the casters and higher armored targets. Anyone who goes for a mesmer first in PvE while ignoring the monk is "noob". Their mindset refuses to change in PvP...

Patrick Smit · Apr 15, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Personally i like to pressure two targets, forcing the monk to constantly switch. Depending on the build, u need to switch a lot (SoR for example, unless u have nice disenchant) or u switch to "spike" unexpectedly after a nice spell has been used by the monk, and therefor cant use it again. Bonders and no disenchant on the team induce/promote monk stomp, while certain builds actually force u to not attack the monk. Most of the time u need to poke a bit on the enemy to know where there weakness is (either on builds, or strategy), and then KAZAM, smash em up real bad.

When i monk its sometimes difficult to get the team to attack a threatening toon (usually a daze type for my build), and i guess it is indeed the typical PvE target priority list that causes this problem. Since many PvE mob monks kite like hell now one should change this priority list, attack anaything that won't kite, either due the fact it is casting (and having long cast times), or its AI is less inclined to do it.

TheOneMephisto · Apr 15, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Well, back before boonprots there were the WoH and bonder monks, both with very good skills for protecting allies but lacking self-defense. That's where the monk-stomp originally came from I think, and then all the scrubs in RA just keep passing it along.

bungusmaximus · Apr 16, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Enemies monk stomping are so much fun on the other hand, I ran a crippling slash warrior today and I laughed my butt off at all the people trying to keep up with our monk while the rest of their team got killed

They would just limp a bit over the battlefield unable to kill anything. Now monk stomp gets me glad points instead of headaches ^^

kvndoom · Apr 16, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I almost never play monk in 4v4 anymore, but I'll never forget the one time I did and the entire OTHER TEAM (4 melee) did nothing but chase me around. I literally held down Up and Left and ran in a circle with them behind me until the rest of my team picked them off 1 at a time. It was too sad to even laugh at.

Program Ftw · Apr 17, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Well, back before boonprots there were the WoH and bonder monks, both with very good skills for protecting allies but lacking self-defense. That's where the monk-stomp originally came from I think, and then all the scrubs in RA just keep passing it along.

Good times~

Thanks,
Pr0gram~

JR · Apr 17, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Disruption on your melee and offensive casters is the primary reason. If you have knockdowns and domination generally they are going to be more effectively used shutting down the Monk. Against a decent ZB or SoR Monk with defensive abilities (Return/D-Stance..) you may want to switch targets with the melee, to something you can pressure more. However, against things like the also fairly common Divert Hexes or RC Monks you can really afford to pile everything on. Their only real efficient heal (gift) is target other, most of the time.

Lord Natural · Apr 18, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

OK nice little rant in here. 75% of the PUG's I join in TA have a very one-dimensional strategy when it comes to TA battles. It's mostly something around: YOU LOT ATTACK MONK FIRST!!!!

If you stick with a group like that, chances are you'll end up with a nice and frustrating 1-9 win streak. I've monked for groups like that. They'll play monk stomp and eventually you'll face competent anti-melee pressure or whatever, they'll chase a kiting monk swinging at air and ignore the warriors frenzying all over you unimpeded. Teams like this are fodder for competent guilds playing TA and even some RA groups.

moko · Apr 18, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Disruption on your melee and offensive casters is the primary reason. If you have knockdowns and domination generally they are going to be more effectively used shutting down the Monk. Against a decent ZB or SoR Monk with defensive abilities (Return/D-Stance..) you may want to switch targets with the melee, to something you can pressure more. However, against things like the also fairly common Divert Hexes or RC Monks you can really afford to pile everything on. Their only real efficient heal (gift) is target other, most of the time.

when running an Divert, you are forced to run a dedicated blindbot (EDA for most in the meta atm), else youa re going down badly. i don't know why anyone with a brain would run RC in TA, but meh. also, mending touch and spirit bond always had a place on a DH bar as well, along with a stance or two, so the self defense was actually fine, nothing shocking but good enough.

i actually miss the monk stomp sometimes, especially with 3 melee and an unnerfed soa that lasted some good seconds. ^^ i also miss the times with 3 shock wars chasing me with sprint while i constantly had make haste on me and never had to stop because they didn't go on anyone else ever.

overall, monk stops leads to a complete failure in 90% off the time, but there's exceptions also when you are forced to get on the monk only.